villainous_big_bang | The Eligibility Roast Post

This is the official Eligibility Roast Post! (I did not do that on purpose, but why change a good thing?)

This will open officially on February 15th, but there's definitely some folks already excited - so from now until Feb 15th, comments will be screened. This means you can post your roast, but rebuttals and confirmations of eligibility won't start happening until the 15th.

Comments are unscreened! You can still post new comments, but now you can respond as well - let the counter-roasting BEGIN!

This post closes for comments on the 29th.

Here's how this works. Comment below with your argument concerning a villain from any piece of media - anime, video game, concept album, group of advertisements, any fictional medium with something resembling a Story - and why they are, in fact, a villain. You can be as daring as you want, but here are the main things your argument needs to cover.

1) Does the story seem to think this character is a villain?
2) Is the character villainous from the perspective of other characters?
3) Is the character villainous from the perspective of readers?

The format is pretty loose, but here's an example for one of the villains already on the list.

TITLE: ENVY (FMA 2003) ROAST

"Envy from Fullmetal Alchemist (2003) is a villain of the worst kind - he's cruel, sadistic and self-centered. He's most known for the murder of a beloved fan-favourite, but he also taunts the main characters with their own mistakes and uses his shape-shifting powers to get into people's heads. He never shows any remorse, and while he has a sympathetic backstory, it only shows up at the end and doesn't excuse any of his actions. He also beats the crap out of a ten-year-old, more than once, which just solidifies the case for him being a Grade-A Asshole."

Please include the specific franchise they're from (if you want to make a case for Envy from FMA; Brotherhood that's a new post!), list some of their misdeeds and in general keep in mind that the mods have not seen or read most of the franchises you'll likely be referencing.

If you would like to REBUT somebody's villain roast, just reply to their comment and explain why the character is - in your view - not a villain! Keep in mind that while Serious Meta is entertaining in its own right, this is largely just for fun. If you start getting really, truly personally invested in whether we do or don't see a character as a villain, take a moment to go catch your breath.

What villain is NOT code for:
'ethically wrong to like' character
pedophile
monster with no redeeming qualities (it's true for some of them, but not all!)
unredeemable
unlikeable

What eligibility roasts should NOT do:
'This is why [X] was justified'
'Sure, it was genocide, but it wasn't THAT bad.'
Otherwise downplay the villainous deeds - that's the exact opposite of what we want!

As villains are approved, they'll appear on the eligibility list.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Caliborn - tries to kill his own sister, destroys entire universes, attempts to kill protagonists, makes some horrible objectifying remarks about women, brainwashes and enslaves people to do his dirty work.

Dirk - oh boy, where do I even START. He was originally a protagonist in the first Homestuck comics, but then it turned out that he went ... omniscience-mad? It's kind of difficult to explain but basically, he was aware of everything his alternate universe selves were aware of and that is TOO MUCH POWER FOR ANY ONE MAN, EVEN ONE AS SMART AS HIM, so he started pulling the strings of all his friends, set off a racist dictatorship, made another friend poop his pants on stage, convinced a third friend to semi-kill-herself to become a robot and is now apparently trying for grand ruler of the multiverse? Unless that's also part of his terrible scheme-within-a-scheme, I honestly don't know, I have given up on trying to make sense of all of this, but Dirk is DEFINITELY into villainous territory now and it's kind of sad BUT it gives me a reason to nom him for this, so yeah.

wait, let me add some more.

The Condescense: Evil empress of a galactic empire, tries to wipe out humankind, ruthlessly kills her own people when they try to rise against her.

Horror Terrors: Basically the Homestuck version of the Cthulhu mythos, ancient elder gods who drive people to madness and lurk out in space instead of in the depths of the ocean.

Neophyte Redglare: Part of an evil empire, is the troll version of a lawyer upholding terrible, terrible blood caste laws.

Are the Horrorterrors evil? Or do they just kind of... exist? Everything I remember about them had them as mostly Unknowable Great Beings who were being wiped out.

Lord English is definitely massacring them, yes!

But there was also that bit where Rose got asked by Doc Scratch to check if the horrorterrors were evil, to which she received an incomprehensible answer and went grimdark which Homestuck decscribes as going "completely off the deep end in every way".

Mostly I went with the fact that they're inspired by/parallels to the Cthulhu mythos but you're right, nowhere is it explicitly said that they're evil.

I disagree with regards to Neophyte Redglare. While she may have upheld what was an injust system by human standards, by troll standards that system is foundational to their culture. Also of note is that she wore the sign of the Sufferer, indicating that her sympathies probably lay with the oppressed but that she didn't have the power (at the time) to fundamentally alter the system.

Oooh, interesting. Yes, I'd agree that she doesn't count as a villain - not exactly morally upstanding, no, but Doing The Best She Can in a fucked up world. (I also never noticed that she wore the sign of the Sufferer, nice catch!)

Neophyte Redglare and the Horrorterrors are rejected as villains, but the Condescence, Dirk and Caliborn are approved! (RIP Dirk.)

Fair, but you could apply the same argument to the Condesce? Her role is ruler of the empire and she fulfills it, even though that involves terrible things like genocide of other species.

I think there's a pretty big difference between being the top of the food chain and being somewhere in the middle. Redglare (and Terezi, as well) aren't highbloods; or rather, if they are, they are at the VERY BOTTOM of highblood hierarchy. There's genuinely not a whole lot they can do without putting themselves in danger.

I feel like if you can control a dragon, you've got at least as many options as a candyblood with no powers (Sufferer) or a bronzeblood who talks to animals (Summoner).

But I also believe very, very strongly that "I was just following orders" is no excuse.

It might involve putting yourself in danger, yes, but that's a choice you make between cowardice and compassion.

It's the difference between every Stormtrooper who follows orders vs Finn and the other Stormtroopers. Disobedience might put you in danger. That's not a reason to refuse to follow what you believe is right.

I'll agree that the Neophyte is less of a villain in an outstanding way, and more of just everyday compliance with an evil regime, but it's .... 4AM and I have lost my words, but pretend there's an important speech here about moral responsibility and how you always have a choice not to follow orders and how even if you kill a person on someone else's orders, the blood is still on your hands.

(I am fine with Neophyte Redglare not passing, for the record! I just think it's really, really important that 'I was just following orders' is never again allowed to be a valid excuse.

For context, I grew up in Austria. We get this drilled into our heads hard which is probably why I am so passionate about it.)

Oh, yes, I see the disconnect now! Rejecting Redglare definitely does not mean that I approve of her actions or think that she is a hero, not at all. I'd probably reject random Stormtroopers, too - anti-hero vs. villain vs. antagonist, etc.

Following orders is *definitely* not an excuse, and I never intended it to be one. Redglare was definitely capable of doing more than she did, but she didn't Joyously and Viciously put things into motion, either - GHB and Condesce are the overarching villains of that scenario, and she's somebody who could have acted and didn't. "Apathy in the face of evil," etc.

I definitely don't want rejections of proposed villains to come off as 'everything they did is fine and good, actually' - just that they don't fit the scope of this event enough for me to say Yes, Absolutely, They Qualify. I understand and super appreciate your passion! Especially in a fandom like Homestuck, though, I could probably approve every single character as a villain. Ultimately, I'm one mod and my calls are subjective - and definitely never any sort of moral call on who is or isn't in the right.

AWESOME, thank you for understanding. <3

I came in ready to defend Dirk and then holy wow I didn't know HOW bad he'd gotten.

I am sceered.

Caliborn is a No Duh though, especially given that he's Lord English.

The Eligibility Roast Post

Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains

Re: Homestuck villains